Personalization (Part One)

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Paradox (0s):
Support for this podcast is provided by Paradox, the Conversational AI company helping global talent acquisition teams at Unilever, McDonald’s, and CVS health get recruiting work done faster. Let’s face it, talent acquisition is full of boring administrative tasks that drag the hiring process down and create frustrating experiences for everyone. Paradox’s AI assistant, Olivia, is shaking up that paradigm, automating things like applicant screening, interview scheduling, and candidate Q&A so recruiters can spend more time with people, not software.

Paradox (40s):
Curious how Olivia can work for your team? Then visit paradox.ai to learn more.

Matt Alder (1m 5s):
Hi there. This is Matt Alder. Welcome to a very special episode 434 of the Recruiting Future Podcast. Those of you who have read my book, Digital Talent, available wherever you get your books, will know that I feel very strongly that personalization is the new megatrend in talent acquisition. Offering personalized recruitment marketing, candidate journeys, assessments, feedback, onboarding, and communication will be critical objectives for employers over the next few years. Candidates are demanding it, the technology is here to facilitate it, and the amount of friction that will get removed from recruiting processes will be a win for candidates, recruiters, and hiring managers.

Matt Alder (1m 54s):
Two weeks ago, the awesome team at Paradox invited me to speak and record some interviews at their client board event in Scottsdale, Arizona. Paradox is a technology that is really driving the progressive personalization. It was really insightful to talk to some of their clients about the need for personalization in their TA processes and the change journeys they are taking their recruiters and hiring managers on to make personalization happen. I’ll be sharing these interviews over two episodes of the show. Later in this episode, you’ll get to hear from Adam Chen, Chief Marketing and Experience Officer at The Amenity Collective, Rachel O’Connell, VP of HR at Great Wolf Lodge, and the return to the show of Victor Gains, SVP of Talent Acquisition at Aveanna Healthcare, but first of all, I sat down with the amazing Madeline Laurano, Founder of Aptitude Research, to get her views on the drive towards greater personalization.

Matt Alder (2m 56s):
Hi, Madeline. Welcome back to the podcast.

Madeline Laurano (2m 59s):
Thanks Matt. I’m excited to be here and in person.

Matt Alder (3m 1s):
Absolutely, face-to-face. We’re currently sitting in the Arizona midday sun, only vaguely in the shade, with some fountains behind us that you may or may not be able to hear. For the people who may not know you, could you just introduce yourself and tell us what you do?

Madeline Laurano (3m 18s):
Sure. My name is Madeline Murano and I’m the founder of a company called Aptitude Research. We do research on HCM technology, talent, acquisition technology, advisory, and research. I’ve been an analyst for about two decades, which is probably a very long time to be an analyst, but I love this area. I love TA tech.

Matt Alder (3m 39s):
Absolutely. We were in a presentation earlier and they’re asking about decades of experience. I was trying to hide when they went over 20 years. I had to work it out but it’s more than 20, less than 25. I’m sticking with that.

Madeline Laurano (3m 54s):
It’s still good.

Matt Alder (3m 54s):
Absolutely. We’ve been having some conversations today around personalization and talent acquisition in terms of their candidate experience, the application experience, the assessment experience, the onboarding experience. There’s some pretty great technology out there making that happen. What’s your take on personalization in talent acquisition? Is it happening? How far away are we from it? What’s your take on things?

Madeline Laurano (4m 21s):
Yes, it’s interesting because I think if we look back 10 years, personalization did not happen. We weren’t seeing any personalization. Candidates didn’t receive responses. To some extent, that’s still going on. We found in our research that 62% of hourly workers received no response whatsoever. Regardless of personalization, they’re not even getting a human interaction at all. Technology has really made personalization come to life, which I think sounds maybe that might not be the case. You think personalization, you think you need humans. We’re seeing technology play a role in helping personalization. We see that with conversational AI, which is what we’ve been talking about for the past two days.

Madeline Laurano (5m 1s):
That plays a huge role because you’re creating experiences through conversation where somebody can get questions answered in a way that’s 24/7 on time, real time. It feels really personal to what their experiences are. When you have that experience, there’s no judgment, there’s more humanity. I think it creates this better experience, but to be able to think about personalization, not just on a career site, which I think is where we see a lot of the innovation, but to think about it when someone’s taking an interview, could they get feedback? Could they get feedback specific to what they’ve gone through that’s automated? Could they have an onboarding experience where, we talked about a couple examples, like should I bring lunch on the first day?

Madeline Laurano (5m 47s):
What should I wear on the first day? What’s the environment? That’s all personal and it’s important. It’s very real. These aren’t silly little things and if we can do it through technology, that’s amazing.

Matt Alder (5m 57s):
Absolutely. Do you think it’s something that will be important to employers? It’s obviously important to candidates. It’s something that, for decades, we’ve been talking about the candidate experience. We’ve been talking about a good experience, not necessarily a personalized experience. I think obviously we’re now at the stage where technology can deliver that personalization. Do you think it’s something that employers will be looking very carefully at prioritizing?

Madeline Laurano (6m 20s):
I think they’re starting to. I think branding plays a role in that. I think companies are held accountable for the experiences they give candidates. We’re seeing that with employer branding, we’re seeing that with different sites. They do care about that. I think the situation that we’ve been in the past year with the labor shortage, or not the labor shortage, whatever aspects you want to talk about. I think that companies are really focused on talent acquisition. For the first time, We have to think about the candidate experience. We have to think about ensuring that they have some type of humanity or personalization. Otherwise, they’re going to go somewhere else. I think the other thing with personalization that people don’t talk about a lot is that there’s an efficiency aspect or a speed aspect.

Madeline Laurano (7m 4s):
If you’re personalizing that experience and you’re creating engagement, even through technology, you’re moving someone along faster than you would be without that. It’s benefiting I think a lot of things that employers do care about.

Matt Alder (7m 21s):
Absolutely, I couldn’t agree with you more. I suppose the other aspect of all of this is change. Employers are having to change what they do very, very quickly to adjust to the new technology, to adjust the market. What are you seeing people do to drive that change?

Madeline Laurano (7m 36s):
I think what’s interesting is in 2020, change happened overnight. You had no choice. You woke up and things were different. You had to change right away. A lot of it was a band aid approach, so we’re just going to go to remote hiring, stop hiring, or going to focus on other things. We’re going to do all of that, maybe without a long-term vision. I think then we saw this ramp up happened last year, where all of a sudden, people woke up and hiring goals were through the roof, and things changed without any type of ramp up whatsoever. Again, there wasn’t a lot of time to think through this change piece. I think where we’re at now in 2022 is companies have to start rebuilding. It’s not just rethinking and it’s not just changing because we have to survive.

Madeline Laurano (8m 20s):
It’s now saying, can we rebuild? Can we put a strategy together? I think for a lot of organizations, there isn’t that push pause, “Let’s think about change and being strategic around it.” It’s just this “Go, go, go” mindset. I think change is important. I love this question, because I think we have to push pause and we have to think about, are we set up to be successful through change for the long-term?

Matt Alder (8m 43s):
A final question to you, very interesting times in the vendor market at the moment. Technology and the trends that are going on. What are you seeing? What’s characterizing 2022? What’s happening in the technology market?

Madeline Laurano (8m 58s):
I think a few things stand out to me. I think companies are investing in technology. I think that’s a huge trend. We’re seeing that companies want technology. Talent acquisition leaders are very sophisticated in how they think about technology. We’re seeing that this is such an important area for organizations and that’s been a shift over the past two years. I think that the landscape is so confusing. It’s incredibly complex. It’s very difficult to figure out how to build a tech stack and one that’s going to be effective and what is actually going to be used by organizations. Then I think the final piece is a little bit near and dear to my heart because we’ve been doing a lot of research on it is the recruiter experience.

Madeline Laurano (9m 41s):
What recruiters want to use for technology is very different in some cases than what organizations buy. We’re seeing these tech stacks being built and recruiters saying, “I don’t want to use that.” There’s change to that. Recruiters sometimes have to go through change to do that. Sometimes it’s not the right technology and we have to adjust to that. I feel very positive when we see things like conversational AI, which is what we’ve been talking about, or programmatic job advertising, or a lot of the sourcing solutions, because that really provides a better recruiter experience. I think that needs to be a theme in the future of TA.

Matt Alder (10m 16s):
I could not agree with you more. Madeline, thank you very much for talking to me.

Madeline Laurano (10m 20s):
Thanks, Matt.

Matt Alder (10m 20s):
Hi, Adam. Welcome to the podcast.

Adam Chen (10m 22s):
Thank you so much for having me, Matt.

Matt Alder (10m 24s):
It’s my absolute pleasure. Could you introduce yourself and tell everyone what you do?

Adam Chen (10m 29s):
Sure thing, my name is Adam Chen. I am currently the COO and CXO of a company called the Amenity Collective and one of our main subsidiaries American Pool, I was a former CIO of, so hopefully I’ll be able to provide some unique insights sitting at the intersection of technology and communications.

Matt Alder (10m 45s):
Tell us a bit more about your role and how that impacts talent acquisition.

Adam Chen (10m 50s):
Sure. I joined the company fairly recently in March, 2020, and we are at an intersection point. We staff in the pool business, about 10,000 summer seasonal lifeguards, and we were working with some legacy software that was no longer working for us. It was working against us and driving incredible inefficiencies and business process for some of our recruiting teams scattered across the country. My initial mandate joining the company was ultimately to help source and then implement a technology solutions that would allow us to free up our employees capacity. Ultimately, they can deliver a better applicant experience, but really ultimately what I’m talking about is building deeper relationships with our talent pool.

Adam Chen (11m 37s):
Ultimately, that’s a success of any business, right? It’s people, making that real connection, and aligning people on vision. We quite honestly weren’t able to really fulfill that promise with some of our own old legacy software. I’m very excited. Two years in on Paradox, and the time to hire has shrunk greatly. It has enabled our people to start effecting that change. Ultimately, that is making us more successful as a company.

Matt Alder (12m 7s):
Fascinating stuff. I’m really interested in what you say that about the fact that this isn’t just about process efficiency. It’s about people, it’s about building major relationships with the talent pool. Talk us through that a little bit just in terms of how that works. If I was an applicant, what would be my experience and how would I really build a relationship with your brand?

Adam Chen (12m 31s):
Sure thing, Matt. That’s a great question. I mentioned that we have about 10,000 seasonal lifeguards that we hire. I would say that that’s really made up of two different cohorts mainly. The biggest cohort is teenagers, and I’m going to focus on them for a second. Teenagers are not looking for career jobs, not at the age that we’re hiring them. We start hiring in certain states based on obviously local labor laws sometimes at 15 years old. Those kids, teenagers, sometimes, they don’t even want their job to be perfectly honest. It’s mom and dad telling them, “You need to get a summer job. Get out of the house.”

Adam Chen (13m 11s):
Because of that, there’s this inertia that we have to overcome, this resistance to actually progressing through the applicant process. We used to have some cumbersome legacy software, some of it home grown. When you’re in a business and you start developing your own software, it’s the classic build versus buy scenario. We actually made it work for us over the long haul, but the cost of maintenance of that solution was really cost prohibitive at a certain point. What we’re looking to do ultimately is find good technology partners that that’s their core mission so we can focus on our core mission. Paradox fits that bill perfectly.

Adam Chen (13m 54s):
They’ve enabled to really allow us to shortcut some of that time to hire. I would say that’s the key metric that ultimately allows us to be successful. Again, you’ve got these kids that don’t necessarily want this job. They’re forced to, and really there’s two motivating factors there. It’s how much can you pay them per hour, because they do care about money. I think everyone does, but ultimately who’s going to put that offer in front of them first. When it used to take days, sometimes weeks, to usher these candidates along the journey, to get them to show up for the interview. All of these points, those are all friction points that will allow us to lose those candidates to competition.

Adam Chen (14m 38s):
Not just competition in our industry hiring lifeguards, but to competition just for pure summer jobs. Obviously, you can go flip burgers or you can go work at the local target down the street. They’re advertising pretty high hourly rates nowadays. You’ve got to compete for this talent. Paradox ultimately enables us to get that offer out incredibly quickly. I’ll share an anecdote. We actually had our president of commercial aquatics division. He, at the beginning of this past season, wanted to try it out for himself. He was just given this new position to oversee our entire operation and he wanted to experience that candidate experience.

Adam Chen (15m 21s):
He actually went through Paradox, texted to apply on a Monday evening. He was scheduled and had an interview with one of our offices, secret shopper type. They didn’t know. He shows up at 9:00 AM on the next morning, on Tuesday morning, and has that interview, pretends the whole time. It was great. You know what? He got his fake offer letter that same day on Tuesday. That’s incredible. A 24-hour turnaround from app application to hire, incredible. Now, of course, lifeguards still need to go through training so it didn’t end there.

Matt Alder (15m 51s):
Did he become a lifeguard in the end though?

Adam Chen (15m 54s):
He did not become a lifeguard. I think he’s past that point.

Matt Alder (15m 59s):
He should have followed it through.

Adam Chen (15m 60s):
That would be funny. What a great piece of marketing material. We have our president of commercial operations sitting in a lifeguard chair at one of our community pools. That’s a photo op.

Matt Alder (16m 11s):
Exactly. With your background in marketing and technology, I’m sure that you have looked at personalization a lot in the past and considered it as a technology trend. We’re only really just beginning to see it happening in talent acquisition. Some of that’s because of technology, and also a lot of it is maybe because of legacy thinking and processes. I suppose, following on from what you were just saying, how important is personalization and where can you see it going?

Adam Chen (16m 37s):
Wow, how important is personalization? I think personalization is incredibly important, but I also think a little bit misunderstood in some ways. I think ultimately you want to be able to offer a tailored experience, but it can only go so far. I think people are pretty, pretty intelligent with it these days. Ultimately, they know if they’re talking to a real person or not. I think the limits of what AI and conversational AI can do are capped, but that’s actually a good thing. I don’t think we truly want to get to the point of true artificial intelligence as they might go to.

Adam Chen (17m 15s):
I don’t want to hide, and I don’t want to be disingenuous to the people that we’re speaking with. I want to be forthcoming that, yes, this is a virtual assistant or conversation. I think anything with AI and machine learning, it takes time obviously to build up that database of responses, image recognition, or whatever the case is. I think that’s a misunderstanding. I think people truly think of like the sentient artificial intelligence and that’s not really what it is. It’s machine learning and I think that’s a more accurate description, but it’s really exciting to see a company like Paradox innovate in this space. Ultimately, it’s allowing our people to find some of those efficiencies, to have this virtual assistant help them with their jobs.

Adam Chen (18m 2s):
That in and of itself is a massive gain for a company.

Matt Alder (18m 9s):
I wanted you to ask you about change because obviously everything in talent acquisition is changing at the moment. Recruiting and retention is so hard. Obviously, in the case of your organization, you were looking to make a change. What would your advice be to other employers who really needed to change up what they do. They probably may need to use technology to do that. How do they drive that through an organization?

Adam Chen (18m 35s):
Wow, that’s the million dollar question, isn’t it, Matt? Driving change is hard. I think it’s easy to buy into a vision, but then not really understand the steps it takes to actually effect that change. Often, it starts at the top. I think that’s where all organizations really need to start is making sure that they get executive buy-in from the top so that those executives truly believe in what you’re trying to push. Then they can push that down to their teams. Too often in my career, I’ve seen change initiatives fail simply because of that fact. Maybe it’s sometimes purposeful, sometimes it’s inadvertent, but people without buy-in ended up sabotaging some of these change efforts. I think that’s where you have to start.

Adam Chen (19m 16s):
I think the other thing in HR technology specifically as is, I believe HR budgets have, for a really long time, really been underfunded. If you believe in the adage that happy employees make happy clients or happy applicants, that’s where the money needs to invest at first, right? If your pain, as an employee, is going to work every day, you’re not going to bring your best self to work. You’re not going to go treat that client or that applicant or whomever with your best or be a proper agent of a company that the company would be proud of.

Adam Chen (19m 57s):
No, you’re just going to do what it takes to get home. I think that’s where it all starts. Oftentimes, I think that sits in the CFO’s office, right? It’s in finance and ultimately getting the buy-in of the financial decision makers in your organization is what’s going to enable that change to happen. That’s the starting point, but it doesn’t stop there.

Matt Alder (20m 14s):
No, absolutely. It’s a long and sometimes difficult process, I’m sure. As a final question, we’re at this point, at the moment, we’re seeing some great technologies coming into the market and being immediately practically useful for organizations. At the same time, there’s a lot of technology on the horizon that’s coming towards us, whether that’s web three or the metaverse or whatever else is being dreamed up. What do you think the future looks like for talent acquisition and technology? If we were having this conversation in two years time, what might we be talking about?

Adam Chen (20m 53s):
Wow, well, you rattled off a couple buzzwords there. I say buzzwords, because I truly believe that’s what they are. Now, innovation needs to happen. People can espouse any of these trending topics all they want, but that’s not going to actually drive that change. That’s not what’s going to drive the innovation or drive the future of what recruiting looks like. It’s going to take a feedback loop I think, ultimately. It’s going to take innovative companies with strong leadership that have a vision, but then I think it’s about partnering with the boots on the ground, the clients of those tools, and having a two-way dialogue to ultimately drive that innovation to a point that’s actually useful.

Adam Chen (21m 35s):
I think it’s in the details there, that nuance of how do we get from here to there? That’s what is ultimately going to be what we’re talking about? It’s what are those tactics? The strategy is easy. It’s the tactics to affect that strategy and push organizations, especially incumbents and industries, along that journey. That’s going to be very difficult, which then comes down to people. I think it’s going to take a unique mindset, not just a product company, but ultimately thinking of software and technology more as consultants to other businesses and partnering together to ultimately drive what consumer expectations ultimately desire.

Matt Alder (22m 11s):
Adam, thank you very much for talking to me.

Adam Chen (22m 13s):
It’s wonderful talking to you, Matt. Thank you.

Matt Alder (22m 15s):
Hi, Rachel. Welcome to the podcast.

Rachel O’Connell (22m 18s):
Hi, thanks for having me.

Matt Alder (22m 19s):
An absolutely pleasure to be talking to you. Could you just introduce yourself and tell us what you do?

Rachel O’Connell (22m 27s):
Yes. My name is Rachel O’Connell and I’m vice president of HR for Great Wolf Lodge.

Matt Alder (22m 31s):
For the people who are listening, who might not know what Great Wolf Lodge is and does, could you just give us a quick overview?

Rachel O’Connell (22m 38s):
Yes. Great Wolf is America’s premier family vacation destination. We are a series of indoor waterpark and amusement resorts for families.

Matt Alder (22m 44s):
Tell us about the kind of recruiting challenges that you have.

Rachel O’Connell (22m 47s):
I think a lot of people who are in the space of recruiting frontline hourly positions are probably facing many of the same challenges. We are always looking for more candidates to apply for our positions and that’s become increasingly difficult throughout the pandemic. We’re also looking to really increase our presence in schools and with students, and making sure that we’re getting in front of the individuals that are going to be interested in our positions. There’s lots of challenges at the moment.

Matt Alder (23m 21s):
I suppose, particularly, well, any kind of that you’re talking to you, but particularly if you’re talking to a younger audience, we’re talking about potential hires who expect a personalized experience. They expect a degree of personalization. Is that something that you’re considering and addressing in terms of what you’re doing?

Rachel O’Connell (23m 42s):
Yes. I think with today’s job seeker, it’s really important not only to meet them where they’re at, speak to them in the way, communicate with them in the way that they want to be communicated with, but to make them feel unique and special throughout the process and that they are not just part of the cattle call for filling open positions. We have explored this. We’re actually working with Paradox at the moment to implement their experience assistant product, which will help us to create these curated experiences on the job website based on what the job seeker is most interested in and serving them up content based on their preferences. For us, yes, it’s certainly, I think we’re at the beginning of that journey and making sure that we’re approaching the candidate experience the same way that we would a guest experience, but I definitely believe that is the future for job seekers.

Matt Alder (24m 37s):
I suppose, zeroing in on the future, we’ve seen huge disruptive change in the last couple of years caused by the pandemic and the development of technology. What do you think the future of talent acquisition looks like? If we were having this conversation again in two years time, what would we be talking about?

Rachel O’Connell (24m 55s):
I’m not sure I have the crystal ball, but I think that the death of the applicant tracking system is probably closer than we all know. I also think it’s really important to Gen Z specifically that you are putting forth an employment brand that helps them feel connected to something more purposeful than just getting a job. Making connections with individuals and helping them understand how they contribute and have an impact to something, I think is going to take a bigger presence in the way that people market their positions.

Matt Alder (25m 32s):
Rachel, thank you very much for talking to me.

Rachel O’Connell (25m 35s):
Yes, absolutely. Thanks.

Matt Alder (25m 36s):
Hi, Victor, and welcome back to the podcast.

Victor Gaines (25m 37s):
Thank you, Matt. Happy to be here.

Matt Alder (25m 40s):
Absolutely. It’s really nice to be talking to you face-to-face after talking through a screen last time.

Victor Gaines (25m 45s):
Yes, exactly. I’m struggling to say. Now I understand what you look like and we’ve talked so long so this is fantastic.

Matt Alder (25m 53s):
For people who may not have caught the episode that you did a few months ago, could you just introduce yourself and tell us what you do?

Victor Gaines (26m 2s):
Yes, of course. My name is Victor Gaines. I lead Recruiting at Aviana Healthcare, so Aviana Healthcare is a home health platform. I have a team of about 70 folks who are facilitating about 12,000 hires a year in that challenging home healthcare space.

Matt Alder (26m 15s):
It was a fascinating conversation the last time we were talking about automation and how it was driving efficiencies, improving the candidate experience, and all those sorts of things. The big theme that I’ve been seeing in the presentations in the event that we’re at today and the other conversations I’ve been having is personalization and personalization moving into talent acquisition. What’s your view on that? How do you think it would develop? How does it fit into what you do in your organization?

Victor Gaines (26m 39s):
Yes, it’s a great question, Matt. I think, we’ve been talking about it a lot recently at work because we’re trying to figure out how do we differentiate the employee value proposition for caregivers, who are attracted to our industry, who are attracted to this sort of work for various reasons. What we have landed on is that we’re pursuing these personas and we’re defining the personas. We’re saying, for example, you might have a new grad nurse and the messaging behind what’s important for the new grad nurse has to be specific to that position because it doesn’t apply to a nurse who also might like our job who might be five years from retirement and is looking at our work for a very different reason.

Victor Gaines (27m 27s):
We firmly believe that if we can identify those personas and we can then craft messaging that makes sense for each of those personas. That’s probably going to capture 70 or 80% of our target population or the target talent pool.

Matt Alder (27m 41s):
What role is technology going to play in that?

Victor Gaines (27m 44s):
I think technology will be huge because technology will be part of the vehicle that we use to communicate this to them. I think historically, we’ve thought about caregivers or candidates coming to us, coming to the website, learning about us, making a decision about what to do. What we’re realizing now, post pandemic is that we have to push the message out to them. We have to have a vehicle to get it to them. Maybe that is through conversational assistant. Maybe that is through text messaging. Maybe that’s through tracking IP addresses and pushing the message up where they happen to be surfing, but I think technology is going to be an enormous factor in how we get that message out.

Matt Alder (28m 28s):
We’re living through a time of immense change in everything, but immense change in talent acquisition. As someone leading talent acquisition, how are you managing that change, driving it, and making sure that what you do in TAs is fit for purpose and evolving at an appropriate speed?

Victor Gaines (28m 44s):
It’s a great question. We have to be very sensitive to what is happening in the market. We have to be sensitive to the fact that the pandemic has changed how people think about work, how they think about how they look for work. Now, that means that we need to be able to go out and meet those candidates where they are, but they’re not in the same place that they were two and a half years ago. For us, being innovative, for us, staying ahead of that curve means watching the market, listening to the feedback, tracking the data, and then really adjusting our practices to meet those candidates where they either are now or where we think they’re going next.

Matt Alder (29m 26s):
As a final question, I asked you this question before a few months ago, but I’m interested to see if your thinking has changed or evolved. What’s the future of talent acquisition?

Victor Gaines (29m 31s):
Part of me is thinking, what did I say last time, Matt? I also think that the future probably continues to evolve. Even if I said something different before, I think the future of recruiting is again, understanding where your candidates are, having a strategy in place that allows you to pursue that talent, either again, where they are or where they’re headed. I think it’s also continuing to balance. I think we talked about this last time, continuing to balance the technology with the human touch. I think technology will continue to become more important in the recruiting process and how recruiting leaders are executing their strategies, but we always have to remember that recruiting is a people-first function, and you just can’t over-rotate one way or the other.

Matt Alder (30m 23s):
Absolutely. Victor, thank you for talking to me.

Victor Gaines (30m 27s):
You are welcome. Thanks for having me.

Matt Alder (30m 30s):
My thanks to Madeline, Adam, Rachel, and Victor, and a huge thank you to everyone at Paradox for being such fantastic hosts. It was brilliant to be face-to-face interviewing again and look out for more interviews in the next episode of the show. You can subscribe to this podcast in Apple podcasts, on Spotify, or via your podcasting app of choice. Please also follow the show on Instagram. You can find us by searching for Recruiting Future. You can search all the past episodes at Recruiting Future.com. On that site, you can also subscribe to the mailing list to get the inside track about everything that’s coming up on the show.

Matt Alder (31m 12s):
Thanks very much for listening. I’ll be back next time and I hope you’ll join me.

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